[rp-ml] Landscape model/ cost effiesient way to print big models?

Michael Armbruster michaelarmbruster at gmail.com
Tue Mar 27 06:14:14 EEST 2018

Hi Charles and Group,

I've been doing a lot of this lately.  For years I rolled my eyes at the
hobbyist machines.  In fact, a few years ago I even spoke up on here.  But,
they are catching up, and it's time to give them credit.  If you're ok
living with the aesthetics of filament extrusion (for massive parts that
just need to look pretty darn good) then it's already a reality today.

A Creality CR-10 Max costs about $1,000 USD and has a build volume of
500x500x500mm.  I've got an extrusion company that sells bulk 25 pound
reels of PLA for nothing.  PLA can bridge (print without supports)
fantastically, allowing you to use something insane like a 3% infill
(nothing).  If you put a 1mm nozzle on there and play around with it for a
bit, you can get it printing incredibly fast.  I bought eight of those
machines just to do one job, and suddenly now I've found myself in a
position where I can make any massive shape in a couple days just by
splitting it up and sending it to my army of PLA monsters.

Moreover, the parts weigh nothing, ship easily, and will dissolve into dust
a few generations from now (it's environmentally friendly).

If you need something massive that just looks pretty darn good, then that's
already a reality, *today*.  Happy to walk you through it offline if you
have any questions.

- Michael

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 6:26 PM, Charles Overy <cwho at lgm3d.com> wrote:

> Bathsheba,
> Today as I hack into 4' x 8' sheets of urethane foam block I have been
> pondering your thoughts about why we are still machining (and planning on
> buying a new mill this year).
> Certainly there are cost issues.   A 4'x8'x4' block is about $700 with
> freight.  If we give the benefit of the doubt to Additive, lets consider
> 1/2 of the block is going to get turned to dust so that is ~150,000 cm^3 of
> material.  If we go with the low cost materials, maybe low cost filament is
> $.02/cm^3 so that is $3000 for the same volume.  I suppose if I use a
> sparse infill I can get closer to the urethane in cost but if you look at
> the cost of UV cure and other precision processes then you are quickly get
> to an order of magnitude price multiple.  I think this is where we were
> back in the mid 2000s so the huge boom in public awareness has not brough
> about much of a material cost reduction EXCEPT in filament extrusion.  Is
> there a limit here or is it just a matter of sales volume and competition.
> I think I remember that Carbon had an announcement out about beating the
> $100 a liter barrier on UV cure.
> Then we get to time.  No good idea really how to judge this except my
> criteria last year at Rapid was a machine that could print a part at > 25
> mm an hour on a max bed size of  250mm square .  That is perhaps
> 1500cm/hr.  I was looking to do this at under $100k machine price.  Nothing
> really.  So that gets me thinking.   Leaving  part geometry aside for a
> minute, what is it going to take to get to the "speed" of CNC machining for
> big parts?   Do we need new processes to deposit large amounts of material
> quickly and precisely or are we going to be machining terrain forms for
> another 10 years?
> Charles
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:13 AM, Igor Drstvenšek <info at rapiman.net> wrote:
>> Bathsheba is right but none of this won't help Atte making his landscape
>> model...
>> If you want SLS parts, I presume you need something that will withstand a
>> lot of "touching attention" and rough handling. The biggest envelope at the
>> moment you can get with sPro230/140 and EOSINT P770. The build area in the
>> first case is about 500mm square and in the second about 700x380. The
>> plants I know about, closest to Finland are in Germany (FIT, Kegelmann and
>> others) But if you're ready to cut your model in many small parts, I am
>> sure you can find a lot of options in Finland too. I would contact Mr Jukka
>> Tuomi at Aalto University...
>> We have some machines here in Slovenia too, and if you don't mind the
>> distance I can help.
>> But for these models, I would rather try one of the 3DP processes -
>> Bathsheeba knows a lot about these, but as far as Europe is concerned, I
>> would recommend checking it out At Voxeljet directly. The founder, Dr Igo
>> Ederer is a great person and I am sure he will point you to the nearest
>> company running one of their huge machines. Regarding the material, there
>> are two options suitable for your needs. One is PMMA and another is casting
>> sand. Both require infiltration after printing.
>> Again if you don't mind the distance we have one "casting sand" machine
>> here. The working chamber's size is 2000x1000x800mm. The biggest Voxeljet's
>> machine is 4x2x2m
>> I hope this helps.
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Drstvensek
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bathsheba Grossman [mailto:b at bathsheba.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 10:54 PM
>> To: Rapid Prototyping Mailing List <rp-ml at rp-ml.org>; G. Sachs <
>> sachsg at sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Re: [rp-ml] Landscape model/ cost effiesient way to print big
>> models?
>> On 3/2/2018 4:41 PM, G. Sachs wrote:
>> > What? To be an expert in manufacturing technology, you have to know
>> > which methods work best. That's manufacturing 101! Atte is not making
>> jewelry!
>> > Charles is right!
>> I note here that, after years of enormous media attention, people's
>> expectations of 3D printing still don't match reality.
>> You may view it as a comment either on the inaccuracy of media reporting,
>> or on the stately pace of evolution in the underlying technology.  If your
>> preference is to view it as reflecting my ignorance, let's return that
>> awkwardness to sender.
>> -Bathsheba
>> --
>> Bathsheba Grossman                              Bathsheba Sculpture LLC
>> http://bathsheba.com                            Free Forms
>> http://crystalproteins.com                      Crystal Proteins
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > ------
>> > *From:* Bathsheba Grossman <b at bathsheba.com>
>> > *To:* Rapid Prototyping Mailing List <rp-ml at rp-ml.org>
>> > *Sent:* Friday, March 2, 2018 4:22 PM
>> > *Subject:* Re: [rp-ml] Landscape model/ cost effiesient way to print
>> big models?
>> >
>> > On 3/2/2018 3:17 PM, G. Sachs wrote:
>> >  > Agree with Charles. Best way to go!
>> >
>> > It is remarkable how, after all these years, what we mainly do with
>> > newcomers to 3D printing is still tactfully discourage them.
>> >
>> > I love the tech, yet I can't count the times I've given this advice.
>> >
>> > -Bathsheba
>> > --
>> > Bathsheba Grossman                              Bathsheba Sculpture
>> > LLC http://bathsheba.com <http://bathsheba.com/>
>>     Free Forms
>> > http://crystalproteins.com <http://crystalproteins.com/>
>> > Crystal Proteins
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> --
> *Charles Overy*
> Director - CEO
> p:970.827.5274 sms:*800.448.8808*
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