RE: Comparing 3D Systems 7000 to Sony SCS-8000D - Final report -

From: James P Harrison <>
Date: Thu Feb 12 2004 - 20:16:25 EET

This is a very interesting report. Thank you very much for sharing it wi=


James P. Harrison
Monster Imaging Products
2991 N. Powerline Rd.
Pompano Beach, FL, 33069

-----Original Message-----
From: []On
Behalf Of Bob Olsen
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 9:47 AM
To: 'SCHAEFER,NICK (HP-Boise,ex1)'; 'RPML'
Subject: RE: Comparing 3D Systems 7000 to Sony SCS-8000D - Final report

Nick, thanks for the information, very informative. Regards, Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SCHAEFER,NICK (HP-Boise,ex1) []
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:13 PM
> To: 'RPML'
> Subject: Comparing 3D Systems 7000 to Sony SCS-8000D - Final report -
> Hello All,
> Disclaimer> All content contained in this document is the personal
> opinions of myself (Nick Schaefer) and my manager, Marvin
> Quist and in no
> way reflects the opinions nor is endorsed by Hewlett-Packard
> company nor any
> other employees of HP. <Disclaimer
> First I must make one correction on my last posting. I
> stated that the
> second parts from 3D Systems were programmed on a
> pre-released version of
> Lightyear because that's what the salesman told us. I found
> out later the
> parts were instead programmed using Magics software.
> We have made our decision and submitted a PO for the
> purchase. The final
> decision was not an easy one and it is not possible to
> explain the reasoning
> for the one we purchased without several paragraphs of text.
> Please read
> the entire message below for details of the decision.
> All of our testing and observations from visiting both
> companies indicated
> that the Sony SCS 8000D was a superior machine and created
> parts of at least
> equal quality to the SLA 7000, and in less build time.
> We have however, submitted a Purchase Order to 3D Systems for
> an SLA 7000.
> Please see the list of Pros and Cons below for the details of
> the decision
> and an overview of the data we collected during the
> evaluation process.
> ----------------------
> 3D Systems Advantages:
> 1. Long time selling systems in the US.
> 2. Proven performance of service and support of our SLA 250
> over the past
> several years.
> 3. SLA 7000 machines have a proven record, with many in
> operation worldwide.
> 4. Response from the sales force, Field Engineer, Design
> Engineers, Software
> Engineer and just about everyone at 3D was extremely eager to
> provide us
> with any and all parts and information we requested, and in a
> very short
> time.
> Sony Advantages:
> 1. SCS-8000D builds parts of equal or better quality faster
> than SLA 7000.
> 2. SCS-8000 and 8000D in our opinion has the following
> advantages over SLA
> 7000
> a. More rugged design, for instance the mechanism that
> drives the wiper
> blade appears indestructible, and other areas of the machine
> are similar.
> b. The wiper blade can be removed from the machine very quickly and
> replaced to the same location with no problem
> c. All resin is contained in the vat assembly.
> d. Heating of the vat is done by a heating element attached to the
> bottom of the vat instead of heating the chamber such as the 3D SLA
> machines.
> e. Items a. through d. are advantages that make changing
> resins and the
> vat very easy and fast.
> f. Much better control of the laser beam and spot size.
> The spot size
> can be changed throughout the range of smallest to largest
> and the smallest
> is smaller than the 7000. We believe the technology of
> Sony's laser focal
> point control during the build process is also better than 3D Systems.
> g. End users have the ability to adjust just about all settings of
> hardware and build software desired, although default
> settings and styles
> are available and appear to work fine.
> h. There are no restrictions as to what brand of resins
> can be used.
> i. Building of very small, finely detailed parts is
> clearly better than
> SLA 7000.
> -------------------------------
> General observations of the test part we requested to be built by both
> companies:
> I designed the part built by both companies with the main
> goal of testing
> the part for appearance, shrinking, warping, and build time. I didn't
> design it with the specific intent of testing accuracy and therefore
> although I did measure all parts with dial calipers for
> comparison, none of
> the data would qualify as being scientific, but gave us a
> good idea of what
> we can expect from the type of parts we will be building.
> With that said,
> the part accuracy of all parts measured from the SLA 7000,
> SCS-8000 and our
> SLA 250/50 were essentially equal.
> The first part we received from Sony appeared to have a
> better finish and
> smoother feel than the first part from 3D Systems. The last
> visit at our
> site from 3D Systems included them bringing a profilometer
> with them to
> check their parts against the Sony parts. The best SLA 7000
> part was 2.99um
> and the SCS-8000 was 3.44um and the 3D Systems viper part
> they brought with
> them was 1.5um. The difference between the 7000 and SCS-8000
> was so small
> that it had no bearing on our decision.
> The CAD model was created so there was only one possible way
> the part could
> be built without a trapped volume. The first part from Sony
> was built in
> the position without a trapped volume but the two additional
> parts they sent
> us later were built with trapped volumes and they were fine
> so the rumor
> that Sony cannot build parts with trapped volumes was dispelled.
> When visiting the US Sony office they gave us a set of chess
> pieces that
> have extremely fine detail of spiral stairs, columns, etc.
> Viewing these
> under a microscope they were quite amazing and in our opinion
> are clearly
> better than can be done on an SLA 7000 and could be at least
> as good as a
> Viper, although we have not seen Viper parts with similar
> detail so cannot
> make a valid comparison.
> Best build times for parts of comparable quality are:
> 3D Systems SLA 7000 =3D 8 hours 40 minutes.
> Sony SCS-8000 (single laser) =3D 8 hours 39 minutes.
> Sony SCS-8000D (dual laser) estimated time of 6 hours and
> 53 minutes.
> When the 3D Systems salesman was here and looked at the Sony
> parts he said
> he was sure that he could have my example part built in 4
> hours. My reply
> to that was that I would expect the SCS-8000D could also
> build the part in
> much less than 6 hours and 53 minutes but the part quality of
> both companies
> would suffer, and not to worry about building the parts. On Monday we
> received a part that was built in 4 hours 4 minutes and on
> Tuesday we got
> another one built in 4 hours and 20 minutes. Both parts were
> significantly
> poorer quality than previous ones. Both had warped walls,
> air bubbles, and
> very deformed areas on exterior walls where an internal web
> joined them. It
> was interesting to see the parts built in a little over 4
> hours, but the
> quality was bad enough they would have required auto body
> filler in some
> places instead of a coat or two of primer to make them
> useable for painted
> concept models. The other thing I don't know is how many
> hours and parts
> were experimented with before they got one built in less that
> 4 =BD hours.
> There was a lot of talk about the differences of having a
> fixed or removable
> build platform, especially in the USA and therefore Sony
> representatives
> tell us that an optional fixed/removable platform will be
> available in the
> US and machines sold before the removable platforms will be
> retrofitted at
> the request of the owner.
> Both companies offered us Magics software which must be better than 3D
> Systems Lightyear because all but the first part from 3D Systems was
> programmed on Magics instead of their own Lightyear application.
> 3D Systems made several trips to our site to provide us with all the
> information we asked for along with additional information
> and made every
> effort possible to make the sale. They made more parts than
> we requested,
> came up with the lowest price (after several confidential
> quotations), and
> provided very quick replies to all our requests.
> The USA Sony office was difficult to get information, parts,
> quotes, etc.
> from. The first part was built in Japan and after it arrived
> in the US Sony
> office it wasn't sent to us without another request from us
> to see what
> happened to it. We were also told they would have a resin
> vendor contracted
> for the US market by the first of 2004, and it was the second half of
> January before that was done. Getting additional sample parts and an
> official quote from the US office was so difficult we were
> thinking we would
> never see one in time to include them as an option.
> As I mentioned in the beginning, it was a difficult decision and I am
> convinced we did not purchase the best machine of the two choices.
> If the USA Sony office can get organized and their service
> and support can
> generate a proven good performance record over the next year
> or two they
> should have no problem selling machines here. If these two
> things were in
> place today, I'm quite sure we would be installing a Sony
> SCS-8000D at our
> site instead of the SLA 7000.
> --------
> Best regards,
> Nick Schaefer
> Boise Site Mechanical Engineering Services
> Phone: (208) 396-4884
Received on Fri Feb 13 17:07:44 2004

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